Andrew Smith, Founder of VRRB Labs, on the State of Blockchains, the Metaverse, and AI Use Cases

In an unique interview with cryptonews.com, Andrew Smith, Founding father of VRRB Labs, talks about constructing a Layer1 blockchain, how Metaverses shouldn’t be constructed on the blockchain, and the way AI will make crypto extra environment friendly. 

About Andrew Smith

Andrew Smith is the Founding father of VRRB Labs, a decentralized protocol that’s growing the VRRB Layer 1 blockchain, an modern blockchain that can make it straightforward and financially sustainable for builders to construct user-friendly purposes. Andrew based VRRB Labs in 2020 after experiencing the challenges inherent in lots of blockchains, together with an absence of scalability and developer-focused sources. Previous to founding VRRB Labs, Andrew served as co-founder and Chief Information Scientist of OWL ESG, a tech-driven ESG knowledge supplier. Andrew started his profession as Chief Product Strategist of the funding agency New Millennium Macro. 

Andrew Smith gave a wide-ranging unique interview which you’ll see under, and we’re blissful so that you can use it for publication, offered there’s a credit score to www.cryptonews.com. 

Highlights Of The Interview

• Constructing a Layer1 blockchain
• Empowering builders to innovate will in the end result in extra enticing and user-friendly dApps, which can, in flip, drive person adoption
• Nurturing a vibrant developer group is the important thing to unlocking Web3’s full potential
• Metaverses shouldn’t be constructed on the blockchain – it’s a waste of their time, power, and sources
• A.I. has the power to take web3 – and blockchain expertise specifically – to the following degree

Full Transcript Of The Interview

Matt Zahab 
Women and gents, welcome again to the Cryptonews Podcast. We’re buzzing as at all times and I am tremendous pumped to have Andrew Smith on the present at the moment, founding father of VRRB Labs. A decentralized protocol that’s growing the VRRB Layer 1 blockchain, an modern blockchain that can make it straightforward and financially sustainable for builders to construct person -friendly purposes. Andrew based VRRB Labs in 2020 after experiencing the challenges inherent in lots of blockchains, together with an absence of scalability and developer-focused sources. Previous to founding VRRB Labs, Andrew served as Co-Founder and Chief Information Scientist of OWL ESG, a tech-driven ESG knowledge supplier. Andrew started his profession as Chief Product Strategist of funding agency New Millennium Macro and at the moment resides within the one and solely Miami, Florida. We like to see Andrew tremendous pumped to have you ever on man. Welcome to the present. 

Andrew Smith 
Thanks a lot for having me. I respect this. Sure, I reside in Miami. Not like lots of people who reside in Miami now, I truly was born and raised right here. It is changing into increasingly uncommon. It is loopy having grown up right here. Clearly, I’ve acquired a bunch of mates who’re from right here, however increasingly usually, you meet individuals they usually’re coming from New York, they’re coming from Seattle, they’re coming from San Francisco and far and wide. I truly left Miami after I was in my early 20s for my profession. There was simply actually no tech trade, so to talk, in Miami. Every part was mainly actual property. 

Matt Zahab 
Like leisure? 

Andrew Smith 
Properly, some leisure, to be sincere, the massive trade right here was like medical insurance fraud, which is sort of humorous. There’s like an enormous, like when all the kind of drug cartels acquired pushed out of Miami as a result of it turned very troublesome to get into the gangs, mainly acquired into like medical insurance fraud the place they’re like defrauding Medicare and Medicaid. It was like an enormous trade right here, which is weird. Miami was at all times sort of often called kind of a sunny place for shady individuals. I did not wish to be related to that, particularly younger in my profession. So I did take the chance to get out as a programmer. I even have a ardour for monetary markets and economics. So began my profession constructing buying and selling methods very early on utilizing knowledge science methods, machine studying, to construct buying and selling methods for primarily centered on commodities. Yeah, in order that took me to LA. So I lived in LA for a few decade, began my first startup there, after which in 2020, I moved again to Miami. So I have been again right here for a number of years. There’s a variety of various things that led me to try this. First was clearly the primary factor that introduced lots of people to Miami was COVID. Every part was open right here. So you bought to reside your life. After which clearly I had nonetheless have all my household right here. So it was very nice after being gone for a decade to return again and reminds you of what actually issues in life and being near household is actually necessary to me. 

Matt Zahab 
Properly mentioned. What are a few of the largest variations you discovered with LA and Miami? As a result of these are two like world -class cities, proper? In case you’re not from the state to somebody who’s from Canada, it is just like the three cities that everybody talks about are New York, Miami, and LA. Clearly, the three most well-known cities within the States. What are a few of the largest variations between the 2 that you just discovered? 

Andrew Smith 
So Miami is the least, perhaps apart from Hawaii, is the least American metropolis in America. It’s extremely Caribbean, the tradition is Caribbean. It would not actually matter what you appear like. You stroll into it, you could be white, black, Asian, you stroll into any retailer in Miami, that the idea goes to be that you just converse Spanish. That’s kind of slightly little bit of a tradition shock for lots of people right away. LA remains to be very various, nevertheless it’s nonetheless very American. There’s burger outlets and donut shops and stuff like that. Right here, there’s none of that. There’s clearly acquired like your quick meals burger locations, however Miami is Cuban cafes, Venezuela and Colombian cafes, stuff like that. So simply the meals, the tradition, all the pieces could be very completely different. LA remains to be very American for my part, and there are advantages to that. However Miami is in contrast to some other metropolis within the States. I believe it is extra like a Caribbean island than it’s one other American metropolis. 

Matt Zahab 
I really like each these cities and I most likely reside in each, however I discovered them very completely different as effectively. I discovered LA, the kind of individuals in LA was very fascinating to me as a result of everyone seems to be, and once more, that is simply my very small pattern measurement of being there, however everybody’s extremely stuffed with themselves and kind of on this little world of their very own, by way of the leisure trade, which I am kind of like, you guys are goobers, what do you do? And on the flip facet, I respect the hell out of it as a result of they’re giving up their lives and desires and households and leaving all of their shut mates to go reside out a dream the place they know they’ve such a small likelihood of succeeding. And I respect the shit out of that. So it’s totally paradoxical on my finish as a result of I am like, you are so stuffed with your self, what are you doing? However on the flip facet, it is like, hey, you are within the area and I am not so touche. In order that’s how I really feel about it. After which Miami, it is only a entire completely different world. However yeah, that is the kind of my two cents there. 

Andrew Smith 
For positive. I believe, yeah, Miami, you get slightly little bit of the complete your self in Miami as effectively, slightly little bit of the flashiness. Positively a few of that. The opposite place the place I believe has slightly little bit of that as effectively is in Silicon Valley. But it surely’s a unique kind of being full your self. However anyone who’s extraordinarily profitable till they turned extraordinarily profitable was instructed time and again that the evolution is a granger they usually’re loopy and no one believed in them. And like, why would you ever strive to do that? Why do not you simply go get an actual job? Like everyone who’s tremendous profitable has some variant of that story of no one believing in them. So I at all times have revered that. I believe it is, you understand, it was simply kind of in my DNA. I used to be by no means going to simply sort of accept, you understand, you understand, a 9 to 5 company job that simply is not me. Once more, I believe that there is a kind of individual that it takes to construct a startup. And I believe there is a comparable character there to the kind of individual that takes to grow to be a well-known actor. So you have to have a particularly excessive diploma of self-confidence. And that is to not say that you just’re not, there’s not going to be ups and downs that you just’re not going to undergo, you understand, powerful instances been there and completed that, nevertheless it’s, you have to have one thing in your self that, that you just consider you are the individual for that job. So, and I believe that there is overlap with the leisure trade in LA. 

Matt Zahab 
100%. Let’s, uh, let’s bounce into the present right here. It’s Crypto Pod, doing analysis, once more one of many questions I at all times should ask, and I acquired to throw sizzling seat metropolis inhabitants. You straight away, it is acquired to occur. You guys are growing a Layer 1 blockchain. There’s so lots of them. Why develop one other one? Clearly there are the reason why you might be growing one other one and we’ll bounce into these. So many individuals have tried to, you understand, discover product market match and growing a brand new Layer 1, you and the group are actually transferring and grooving and have a very good likelihood of discovering that kind of finish objective product market match. However in essence, in summation excessive degree, in case you may summarize it, why are you guys constructing a brand new Layer 1 blockchain? 

Andrew Smith 
So I believe that there is actually two core causes. One is, is scalability. We’ve got but to actually see a very scalable Layer 1. You can argue Solana and to some extent now, Sui, however even their, you understand, peak transactions per second have been kind of within the three, you understand, the 50 ,000 vary and common transactions per second on Solana. I believe hover round, round 3000. There’s all kinds of controversy and arguments about whether or not these are votes versus precise, you understand, transfers worth and stuff like that. So scalability, I believe remains to be actually necessary. If we wish to construct a brand new monetary system and a brand new web censorship resistant or censorship proof that is permissionless, that banks the unbanks that lets you globally switch worth in, you understand, sub second instances, you want to have the ability to deal with extra. There’s eight billion individuals on the earth. There’s tens of millions of companies, cash’s flowing throughout on, and, you understand, the legacy monetary system, you understand, whether or not it is inventory market or, you understand, the swift system or regionally within the States, domestically, the, uh, Fed wire system, there’s billions and trillions of {dollars} touring round these, these mechanisms, to not point out all of the bank card transactions, all the pieces. So that you want to have the ability to scale a blockchain as much as a whole bunch of 1000’s, if not tens of millions of transactions per second, in order for you to have the ability to change the legacy monetary system. In order that’s primary. After which quantity two, I discovered that the give attention to most Layer 1s has been within the improper place. It is  been primarily round making an attempt to create kind of a moded group, small group of area of interest builders. Oftentimes these builders are actually good. Typically you’d say they’re too good for their very own good. There’s not like an excellent stable person expertise focus or product focus. Quite a lot of instances it is, Hey, let’s do one thing enjoyable and fascinating and funky, that lots of people sort of have a troublesome time referring to or understanding. So the second factor that was actually sort of a giant driver for us to do that was to rethink the way in which the developer expertise works. As a substitute of constructing a Layer 1 with a language VM and kind of a website particular language, and even kind of taking the Solana strategy and utilizing, you understand, current languages like Rust, you understand, we needed to supply a extra versatile developer expertise that made it potential for current Web2 builders and kind of your normal software program programmers on the market within the wild to make the transition to Web3 actually seamlessly. Builders are the lifeblood of a Layer 1. You realize, we speak rather a lot about customers, like the place are we going to seek out the following billion customers? And that is all, all humorous and good. And I believe we have to have these conversations like, yeah, what are the killer use instances which are going to return from this? However in the end the reality of the matter is no one truly is aware of. What we actually should be specializing in is bringing on builders who can construct modern new merchandise that ultimately individuals will wish to use. Customers will come if there’s use instances for them to make use of. That is not the one prerequisite. It is advisable get the phrase on the market about these use instances. It is advisable drive individuals to it. You’ve the best product on the earth, but when no one’s heard of it, no one’s going to make use of it. So there’s a number of layers to it, however on the very core of it, in order for you extra customers, you want issues that they wish to use. And I do know that seems like actually apparent, however no one’s doing that. No one’s specializing in that. In order that was the place we felt we may actually have a giant benefit right here. So our Layer 1 presents the power to construct good contracts in any language that you really want. Actually no matter programming language you favor, you may construct in our system. And if you would like, we will speak about how we allow that. And on high of that, it isn’t simply in regards to the language barrier, though that is a giant one. Acquainted instruments, acquainted frameworks, acquainted testing environments, making it feel and look extra just like the Web2 developer expertise. One thing that individuals are accustomed to that they will step in and in quarter-hour to half-hour go from a check internet and even launch an area check atmosphere. So there’s all kinds of tooling that we’re constructing across the developer expertise to supply a seamless onboarding course of. 

Matt Zahab 
Stroll me by the language barrier and developer tooling, as a result of once more, that is one thing that was by no means entrance of thoughts for me. It is sensible that that is such a problem in developer tooling and the developer expertise, however I did not comprehend it was as massive a problem because it truly is. I would love in case you may simply take a deep dive into this and why the language barrier is such a shithole for builders. 

Andrew Smith 
Yeah, so I believe I get this query rather a lot, significantly round solidity. And it is like, solidity is just not that arduous of a language to study. Why cannot individuals simply study it? And the reality is that that’s true. Like, it isn’t a loopy, troublesome language to study tactically. In case you’ve reincode in JavaScript and even to a sure diploma, C and C++, there’s sufficient overlap there the place you may decide up the syntax fairly shortly. And it is probably not nearly studying the language, although. Solidity has all kinds of what we might name foot weapons. And it’s totally straightforward to make errors. It’s extremely straightforward to grow to be complacent and suppose that you understand what you are doing. And while you’re speaking about tens of millions of {dollars} in danger, doubtlessly billions of {dollars} in danger, you have seen tons of exploits on Ethereum. There is a motive why there’s tons of exploits, as a result of the language is just not actually the most secure language. So it isn’t nearly studying the language. It is about changing into an knowledgeable on the language. In order that’s a part of it. After which the second a part of it’s, why study solidity? There’s just one motive you’ll ever study Solidity, and that is to jot down good contracts. It’s a domain-specific language. There have been different domain-specific languages which have grow to be marked down, clearly, is actually fashionable. You name {that a} DSL. HTML is a DSL, proper? However there have been these enormous person bases already in-built for that. It is not precisely clear that there is a enormous person base in-built for good contracts. I believe these of us within the know, know that is the case. However there’s probably not an enormous incentive for some Python developer who’s making 1 / 4 million {dollars} a yr constructing machine studying algorithms to go and study one more domain-specific language. They’d reasonably study an extra normal programming language like Go or Rust or C or C++ or another Web2 language. Perhaps they wish to study JavaScript they usually wish to learn to write react code in order that they will construct front-ends and tie them in with their apps. So it isn’t nearly it being a troublesome language as a result of it is actually not. It is pretty straightforward language to choose up the fundamentals of. However then changing into an knowledgeable of something takes time. And since there’s all these ebook weapons, it’s totally costly. You must get very costly audits in your good contracts. You are coping with individuals’s cash. After which on high of that, it’s not a normal programming language. It is a domain-specific language. There’s just one motive you may ever study it. Lots of people simply do not feel as if it is value studying for that goal. But when they may construct a language that they will additionally do 10 different issues with, now unexpectedly this turns into extra interesting. 

Matt Zahab 
Your ceiling is extra increased as a dev. Actually, the road you gave in regards to the upside and managing the danger and reward of leaping from Web2 to Web3, it is nonsensical. It makes nearly zero sense for them. In case you’re making a pair hundred grand a yr doing no matter you are doing plus the power to make facet money, facet jobs on the facet, why would you bounce to Web3? Certain the ceiling could be slightly bit increased, however there is a shit ton of threat as effectively. It is an excellent level. 

Andrew Smith 
Yeah, precisely. There is a ton of threat. So to remain on that time slightly bit, what has made Silicon Valley what it’s at the moment is what I sometimes discuss with as espresso store entrepreneurship. A few builders hanging out at a espresso store, get to speaking, concept sparks. They each know the way to write code, spend a few weekends constructing out an MVP or prototype, and increase, you bought a product. You possibly can go and check it amongst your pals. And if there’s one thing there, okay, now I am going elevate cash round it. Now I attempt to discover product, market match, etcetera. You actually haven’t got that in Web3. You have to dedicate all the pieces it’s a must to constructing no matter it’s you are constructing and get it to a check internet. This goes into a complete bunch of different issues, however for this reason the metric that we actually sort of give attention to right here at VRRB is developer acquisition price. So issues kind of buyer acquisition prices, however with give attention to builders. And the developer acquisition price for different base layers is actually excessive. And there is a motive for that. In case you’re asking someone to surrender no matter else they’re doing and spend six to 9 months constructing out a prototype of one thing, they want some cash to make that work with their life-style. So a number of Layer 1s give out massive grants. They host these actually kind of elaborate and stylish and costly hackathons and hacker homes to attempt to drive builders into their ecosystem. So our developer acquisition price on this trade has gotten out of hand. It is unsustainable. And at a sure level, if we actually wish to deliver in additional builders and discover killer use instances, we acquired to drive that down. The easiest way to drive that down is to construct out a hobbyist tradition the place issues like fast prototyping turns into rather a lot simpler, the place individuals can do that as a facet gig till they’ve examined it sufficient to know that they are onto one thing after which they will exit and lift the cash that they should truly deliver it to market. That is what you get in Web2. That is what you get in kind of normal software program programming. You do not have that in Web3. You get slightly little bit of it, however you actually haven’t got like this sturdy hobbyist hacker tradition. 

Matt Zahab 
So true. So it looks as if the playbook in your eyes, and I am in a really comparable yacht to you, nevertheless it looks as if the playbook is on the muse facet of issues, founders and groups have to construct actually good developer tooling to get builders in, which can inherently enable a mess of actually good services and protocols to be constructed, which now has extra use instances for finish customers, and that can simply create the funnel that’s lacking. Is that that I kind of sum that up accurately? Something lacking from that? 

Andrew Smith 
No, I believe that is exact. I believe providing up some assist as effectively, highlighting, selling. To a sure diploma, you wish to be considerably impartial about this, however I do suppose that the foundations do have a accountability to additionally inform the general public that, hey, this is some actually cool issues you are able to do on our chain or on our community. So, I might add that to it. However yeah, it is creating kind of this, you understand, individuals will use the time period flywheel. I believe that is sort of what it’s. You are creating this flywheel the place, you understand, a few good merchandise get constructed, extra builders are available, as a result of now there’s liquidity in customers, they construct some extra new merchandise. After which, ultimately, you simply have, you understand, kind of, you understand, what we wish to see is kind of an AWS of Net 3, the place it is simply your go-to while you wish to deploy a product, proper? Like, you construct one thing, you go to VRRB, you deploy it, you construct one thing else, you go to VRRB, deploy it, and also you simply hold creating new and new issues and piecing issues collectively to construct an ecosystem of use instances. Sure, some which are Web3 native, some which are kind of Web2 .5. However on the finish of the day, we wish builders to suppose Web3 first, not Web3 provided that I completely want it. There’s a number of advantages to Web3 that you just get. Like, for instance, one of many issues I discussed earlier on is censorship-resistant web, like, or censorship-proof web. I believe, you understand, you are in Canada, I am within the States, we’re privileged in the truth that we reside in a democracy that, you understand, 99% of the time permits totally free speech. There’s a number of advantages to dwelling in a Western democracy. And lots of people simply sort of neglect that far more of the world doesn’t reside in a Western democracy than lives in a Western democracy. So one of many advantages of rising up in Miami was that was hammered into my head again and again gigs. Quite a lot of my mates, their mother and father escaped authoritarian dictatorships. So, and got here to America for that promise of democracy and freedom and the power to talk your thoughts and to complain and reject, you understand, the established order. You realize, we get to go to the web, go to no matter websites we wish for essentially the most half. That is not the case in the remainder of the world. That is not the case in Iran. It is not the case in China. That is not the case. Numerous locations the web is censored. 

Matt Zahab 
Canada now, sadly, it is yeah. 

Andrew Smith 
Yeah. It is not what it as soon as was, proper? And that is the identical case in a number of locations in South America. After which take that and prolong it to the monetary system. So now you are speaking about not simply info, however individuals’s cash will get censored. And they are often unbanked, you understand, or debanked. 

Matt Zahab 
That is spooky. 

Andrew Smith 
Yeah. So on the core of what we’re doing right here is we’re making an attempt to construct a spine for a censorship proof, permissionless web and monetary system that allows individuals to entry all the issues that we, rising up in a Western democracy, took with no consideration. And I believe that is a extraordinarily necessary objective if we wish to see human flourishing. That diploma of freedom permits individuals to make one of the best selections for themselves and permits them to have the ability to conduct enterprise and trade, which in the end goes to result in a lot higher requirements of dwelling. It will carry individuals out of poverty. All of these items are essential to me. That is why I am constructing VRRB. However on the core of it, none of that issues if at that first layer, builders have a troublesome time constructing what they wish to construct. Proper? So you have to make it straightforward for the people who find themselves going to supply up these companies to construct on high of the infrastructure that you just’re providing up. In any other case, they’re simply going to go to AWS or Google Cloud or Azure, wherever else. 

Matt Zahab 
100%. Yep. What’s cozy. What’s straightforward. Andrew, we will take a fast break and provides an enormous shout out to our sponsor of the present PrimeXBT. And after we get again, we’re going to speak in regards to the Metaverse and a few of the largest misconceptions in regards to the Metaverse. However first, enormous shout out to PrimeXBT, our sponsor of the present and longtime mates of cryptonews.com. PrimeXBT presents a sturdy buying and selling system for each rookies {and professional} merchants. It would not matter in case you’re a rookie or a vet, you may simply design and customise your layouts and widgets to finest suit your buying and selling fashion. PrimeXBT can also be providing an unique promotion for listeners of the Cryptonews Podcast. After making your first deposit, 50% of that first deposit might be credited to your account as a bonus that can be utilized as further collateral to personal positions. The promo code is CRYPTONEWS50, thats CRYPTONEWS50 all one phrase to reap the benefits of this supply and obtain 50% of your deposit credited to your buying and selling account. And now again to the present with Andrew. Let’s present them into the Metaverse. Clearly, we will return to VRRB. I imply, that is related, however nonetheless, considered one of your not sizzling takes, however considered one of your heat takes maybe on the metaverse is that Metaverses shouldn’t be constructed on blockchains. And there actually is not a future during which Metaverses could be constructed on blockchains as a result of it’s hella costly, manner an excessive amount of gear wanted, manner an excessive amount of graphic associated stuff wanted. It is candidly, it is nightmare gasoline, however there’s such a story that is already been constructed into the ethos of Web3 and to crypto and blockchains and NFTs and the metaverse one and so forth that it nearly looks as if the metaverse is synonymous with crypto or being constructed on a blockchain. And actually, it isn’t the case. I really like in case you may take a deep dive into this and clarify why is that this such a waste of time, power and sources. 

Andrew Smith 
Yeah, it is completely not crucial to construct a complete metaverse on chain. And also you noticed a number of like run initiatives attempt to reap the benefits of this. You are going to purchase a plot of land within the metaverse and I get it. I believe it is an fascinating use case for like NFTs and stuff, like digital actual property and all that. I simply by no means actually sort of noticed that. I believe there’s a part of the metaverse that you may have on chain, which is it like no matter you wish to name it, in-game property, proper? Or like every world property. So you may have NFTs that signify sure issues inside the metaverse which are on chain and make them tradable and extra accessible. After which you may have APIs inside your VR world that let you sort of like work together with the blockchain on the again finish. However the concept of constructing your entire infrastructure on high of black blockchain is sort of absurd. The one advantage of it might be kind of the censorship resistant or censorship proof facet of it. You’d be capable of entry it from wherever at any time. However I do not suppose that like till we get to a degree the place there’s all kinds of, and that is sort of the opposite downside, till we get to the purpose, did you ever watch the Chappelle present? 

Matt Zahab 
In fact. Oh yeah. Basic. 

Andrew Smith 
Okay. So there’s this, every time I consider the metaverse, I consider this. There’s this episode of the Chappelle present the place he is speaking about like, he does this skit of what if the web was an actual place and like a spot in actual life. And like he is why that is again within the previous days within the web the place they’re pop-ups and like, you understand, identical to you may be looking the web and all kinds of like porn pop-ups begin arising and it is like, get out of my face. What are you doing? You realize, so he is like strolling by this actual and I sort of like, that is sort of like what I consider after I consider the metaverse nonetheless. And perhaps it is simply because I am getting older, however I believe there are some features of it of a metaverse the place particularly in order for you mass adoption, you have to have some extent of management over the content material that is being produced in it. You do not need the entire thing to devolve into, you understand, a spot that is not, you understand, little one pleasant, permits a really like offensive atmosphere for kids or for anyone actually. So I believe that there is features of management over a metaverse that you just wish to have. That is one a part of it. I do suppose in world property, you may hyperlink on chain and have, you understand, a few of these advantages constructed into it. However I believe the thought of all the pieces needing to be on chain is sort of absurd. I see metaverse as kind of a Web2 .5 software that you’ve a number of the gaming elements of it are constructed off chain. The asset part of it’s on chain and also you sort of hyperlink these collectively by, you understand, API calls all the way down to the chain. That is most likely the obvious option to construct this. I believe a lot of the metaverses we have seen have been constructed that manner. I believe making an attempt to keep away from getting scammed shopping for like a plot of land within the metaverse might be a good suggestion. Like do not buy plots of land within the metaverse. The rationale why actual property is pricey and has values is as a result of there is a legit shortage to it. There’s solely a lot in sure areas with sure traits, and so forth. Within the metaverse, you may produce as a lot actual property as you need. You can argue that like, yeah, you may create shortage, synthetic shortage inside these worlds. However I do not know, it is pointless. If we wish to construct like a very expansive metaverse kind of the snow crash, you understand, Neil Stevenson imaginative and prescient of the metaverse of this expansive world with all kinds of various, you understand, in-game companies and property and avatars and all that sort of stuff. A few of that may be facilitated by blockchain expertise and tokenization, and I am all for that. However I believe the core recreation part of it most likely shouldn’t be. 

Matt Zahab 
Yeah. No, Andrew, you and I are in the identical yacht right here. With reference to VRRB and the Metaverse, you guys once more, bread and butter serving to the Dev group create unimaginable instruments for the Metaverse. What precisely are you and the group doing to assist Devs create higher tooling protocols and merchandise for the Metaverse? 

Andrew Smith 
The power to combine 3D property and use current languages like Unity and C++ and having the ability to incorporate current frameworks for recreation growth and 3D world growth I believe might be an important one the place you need not study new abilities to combine Web3 property into your Metaverse. You possibly can truly simply use current instruments. You possibly can construct it prefer it’s a daily recreation and you need to use API calls all the way down to applications or good contracts which are in-built languages that your group is already accustomed to, that you have completed earlier than. The large distinction right here as a substitute of utilizing a SQL database, you are utilizing a blockchain. So everytime you’re monitoring someone’s in recreation property, as a substitute of constructing like a Django framework with a Postgres backend, you are simply going to make use of our chain to stash knowledge and customers will truly personal their avatar. Customers will truly personal, in case you’re constructing, as an instance like a MMORPG recreation, which I make the identical argument I simply made for the Metaverse. Quite a lot of that stuff can simply be Web2. However a few of the property being Web3 present a number of advantages. I by no means get an opportunity at taking part in anymore, however I used to be a giant fan of Diablo, the unique Diablo. I bear in mind individuals promoting their avatars on eBay. They’d promote their degree 770 avatar for like 5 grand, ten grand. Which is loopy. Yeah. And what you have been promoting was not your avatar, you are promoting your username and password on eBay, which is loopy. However this was an actual factor.  It most likely nonetheless is. I have not regarded, however most likely nonetheless is. However now you are able to do that with out having to surrender your username and password. That avatar sits in your pockets. You possibly can promote it to someone else in the event that they wish to purchase it. Identical factor with your whole weapons and your armors and all the pieces else. You’ve actual in-game trade. You’ve in different video games already. You’ve in-game, present season in-game exchanges. This simply makes it much more actual and tangible and swappable, the place you do not have to swap it only for different issues which are in-game. You possibly can swap it for issues which are outdoors of that recreation for various property. So there’s a number of advantages to integrating Web3 property and tokenization into gaming. I see that it’ll be a catalyst. That is what introduced a era onto the web. There isn’t any motive to suppose that it isn’t going to additionally deliver a era into Web3 on chain. It is a very troublesome area to be in, although. Gaming could be very aggressive. And in case you’re as a series presenting your self as a gaming chain and you do not land the largest recreation of the season, then from a enterprise perspective, you are in slightly little bit of bother. So for this reason VRRB is just not a gaming chain. We’re a generalist chain. We do not wish to be pigeon holed into being a gaming chain. I believe that is a really troublesome enterprise proposition. And everyone’s going to be competing for one of the best recreation. That is to not say we’re not going to attempt to compete for one of the best recreation. We wish to compete for one of the best recreation as effectively. We wish these video games on our chain. Simply everyone’s going to be. So it is a very troublesome place to place your self in if you wish to be actually a gaming chain. So yeah, that is sort of my ideas on it. I believe the possession part of gaming and the metaverse is a Web3 native use case. I am a giant fan of it. However a number of the opposite stuff outdoors of that does not should be on chain. 

Matt Zahab 
Yeah, I completely agree with you right here. Andrew, one final kind of mega matter to leap into earlier than we wrap up right here, AI and Web3. You are a believer that AI can revolutionize could be a stretch, however actually make present Web3 all the pieces, tooling, you identify it, much more environment friendly with issues like gaming, for instance, creating recreation property, nearly immediately having the ability to do tons of cross-chain stuff, actually simply making issues 100 instances simpler. What’s your two cents on the way forward for Web3 X AI? 

Andrew Smith 
I am a giant fan of AI. Clearly, as a knowledge scientist in my final function, we constructed a BERT mannequin, which in a number of methods is sort of precursor to all of the GPT and different pre-trained, massive language fashions, extra centered and closed area fashions. I see AI as a software. I am not a doomer. In terms of AI, I believe it’ll dramatically enhance the standard of life of individuals. It will create 100X productiveness for lots of people. Your typical junior engineer is just not going to have the ability to write code. They are a senior engineer and your senior engineers are going to fucking crush. Excuse me, sorry for cursing. 

Matt Zahab 
No, you are good to let it fly. 

Andrew Smith 
Okay, cool. I believe it’ll be nice for lots of various issues. I additionally suppose the person expertise of chat, this pure dialog person expertise, as a substitute of getting to click on buttons and study some unintuitive person interface, simply having the ability to chat and get issues completed and use pure language to perform what you wish to accomplish with any given app, I believe is a very nice enchancment in person expertise. That might be introduced over into Web3 as effectively, significantly relating to the gaming dialog, the power to embed massive language fashions into NPC, non participant characters, and create extra of a singular journey for gamers of the sport, the place it isn’t at all times the very same factor, the place NPCs now even have slightly little bit of like, they’ve a thoughts of their very own, so to talk. I believe additionally one of many actually cool issues that we will see as AI embedded in executable NFTs, and the power to construct brokers out of your NFTs with completely different personalities, completely different characters, and have these autonomous brokers which are embedded in an executable NFT, and could be educated over time to grow to be actually good at some explicit activity. So now there’s an inherent utility in a few of these NFTs. I’ve acquired a number of concepts round this thought specifically. I may most likely do a complete podcast simply on this. 

Matt Zahab 
Hold going. Give me a few of the massive ones. 

Andrew Smith 
I believe the apparent one is, and that is very uncoture, however the simp economic system, in case you have a look at AI girlfriend, AI boyfriend searches on Google, it is skyrocketed. Proper now, it is like some chick on Instagram who’s utilizing a generic LLM that’s simply responding with generic responses to everyone versus having a custom-made one. The opposite factor is tutoring. I believe for, so that is taking it to the other finish of the spectrum. I believe LLMs are going to grow to be nice tutors and are going to make the method of changing into educated and studying rather a lot higher for lots of people, significantly individuals with studying disabilities, for individuals with bother comprehending particular subjects. That is going to be a dramatic enchancment. I believe having some extent of fine-tuned for every particular person massive language mannequin, that is the place Net 3 is available in. With the ability to do decentralized AI, and this goes past good contracts, this turns into extra of a decentralized generic compute activity, which I believe VRRB is very well suited to. With the ability to have custom-made nice tuned fashions and brokers which have long-term reminiscence and get a really feel for the way in which that conversations go, the place sure individuals wrestle, the place sure individuals are good, and tying that into some kind of ownable asset in order that you understand you are at all times utilizing the right mannequin for a given activity, I believe is a very highly effective factor. We’re nonetheless a methods away from this. I am impressed by a few of the LLMs which are on the market. They don’t seem to be silver bullets. They do not clear up all the pieces. I believe there’s been a number of hype round them. The belief is that you would be able to mainly spin up an autonomous misage and inform it to do no matter you need. It is simply going to do it. That is probably not the case. Even in case you needed it to do some actually advanced duties, it could accomplish it over a protracted time frame. With a number of customization, you could possibly get it to do what you wish to do. In the end, it’ll grow to be actually costly in case you’re utilizing a closed supply mannequin. In case you’re utilizing an open supply mannequin, the period of time that you will be utilizing it might not be value. It simply takes too lengthy to do, to nice tune it and so as to add it. I believe there’s a number of use instances for AI, and there’s a crossover. I believe essentially the most compelling one, the obvious one straight away, is the development of person expertise. Then on the opposite facet, the development of the developer expertise. The power to scaffold out code utilizing massive language fashions is incredible. You will get much more completed rather a lot quicker that manner. I believe these two areas are the apparent ones. Then the embedding of enormous language fashions and distinctive property that serve particular functions and are nice tuned to that particular goal is actually priceless. A pay as soon as, use it eternally mannequin, particularly in case you’re utilizing open supply fashions. You would not pay as soon as and use it eternally each time you are interacting. You are most likely going to should pay slightly bit for the compute job. However successfully, you purchase this asset one time. If you purchase a recreation, you may improve it. You need to use that recreation eternally. You possibly can improve it, however you need to use it eternally because it comes, versus a subscription mannequin or one thing like that. Significantly as open supply fashions enhance, I believe we’ll get increasingly of those custom-made area particular massive language fashions that might be embedded into various things. The opposite factor is the power to create distinctive property on the fly, which is one thing that you just talked about at the start of this. Instruments like steady diffusion and as that improves significantly round having the ability to construct 3D fashions and 3D avatars, the power to create customized property on the fly goes to be one thing that I believe is actually priceless versus having to have your whole property in a recreation or your whole property in a metaverse pre constructed. The power to make use of AI, use steady diffusion, or another AI mannequin to generate characters, gadgets, and so forth., and have these gadgets be distinctive, that is one thing that I believe is actually cool as effectively and an intersection of AI and Web3 that I believe is coming sooner reasonably than later. 

Matt Zahab 
Properly mentioned. Andrew, this has been a blast. I do know we’re getting slightly tight for time and we have barely scratched the floor right here. I can’t wait to have you ever on for spherical two. One final query earlier than we wrap up. Any Andrew Smith sizzling takes? I do know you bought a bunch of them. Give us a pair. It would not should be crypto associated. Is usually a little spicy, generally is a little controversial in case you like well being, wealth, happiness, AI, area, you identify it. Give me a pair Andrew sizzling takes earlier than we go. 

Andrew Smith 
I will follow crypto and I will attempt to bitter the Kool Assist round Rollups slightly bit. I believe that lots of people That I speak to are successfully within the camp that innovation is over. Mainly, Ethereum plus Rollups plus restaking solves all the issues we ever imagined. It is a silver bullet. It is a silver bullet for scaling. It is a silver bullet for developer expertise. It is a silver bullet for all of those issues that folks clearly clear up with Ethereum. There’s completely no want for there to ever be one other Layer 1. There’s completely no want for there to ever be one other ecosystem outdoors of EVM. To begin with, I believe that is absurd. You are beginning to sound rather a lot like Bitcoiners while you attempt to fall into this territory of, that is the one factor you may ever want. The primary is normally not one of the best. Often, issues should be improved and sometimes enchancment comes from the skin, not the within. It is rather a lot simpler to rebuild one thing from scratch than it’s to increase and enhance one thing, particularly while you’re coping with advanced system the place billions of {dollars} are in danger round it. So, I might warn in opposition to assuming that Rollups plus Dinksharding plus ZK proofs plus restaking and this entire scaling roadmap for Ethereum goes to be the silver bullet. I believe it’s going to be sorely disillusioned. I believe there are some advantages to it. Does it scale it? Sure, technically it does. Even with Dinksharding although, you are solely most likely going to get 2 ,000 to three ,000 transactions per second. So, it isn’t almost what we want in an effort to truly construct a spine for a brand new web and a brand new monetary system. After which on high of that, there’s all kinds of issues that come together with rollups and Layer 2s. After which you may prolong a few of these to Layer 3s as effectively if you wish to speak about execution environments that enhance the developer expertise. However initially, the obvious one is centralization dangers. So, a number of rollups, a number of L-2s are mainly successfully single sequencer, single validator. They’re making an attempt to enhance that. They’re making an attempt to decentralize them extra. The extra you decentralize, the much less scalable they grow to be. One of many the reason why L-2s are so scalable is as a result of they’re so centralized. The opposite downside is that you find yourself with what I discuss with as liquidity fragmentation. So, you are going to have DEXs on all these completely different Layer 2s. Individuals are going to be utilizing them. The liquidity spreads out versus all of it being on the bottom layer, the place now you’ve got a way more liquid atmosphere. Slipage goes to grow to be increased. There’s a number of issues with that you just lose a number of composability, which is likely one of the nice advantages of good contracts, significantly within the EVM atmosphere, is that they are so composable, they will work together with one another, you may set off unintended effects amongst them. You lose a number of that while you shift that to a Layer 2. Then lastly, I believe the person expertise on L-2s nonetheless leaves rather a lot to be needed. It’s not what individuals anticipated it to be. The power to bridge between Layer 2s after which again to the bottom layers is just not nice. It is a poor expertise. That is my sizzling take. I am typically a contrarian, so normally when 90% plus individuals suppose a technique, I am normally going to take the other of it in any case. However that is what I am actually involved about. I believe lots of people are pouring a number of sources into one thing that may be a idiot’s gold answer. There are advantages to Layer 2s. They aren’t a silver bullet. I do suppose we do want extra L-1 innovation. That is why VRRB exists. That is why L-1s like Monad, one massive fan of these guys, they’re making an attempt to scale EDM as much as over 10 ,000 transactions per second. Their group is actually good, very advanced downside, however they’re hoping to perform that. We want innovation on the base layer. If we ever wish to construct a brand new world monetary system and a brand new web, it’s a must to have innovation on the base layer. Quite a lot of VCs are pouring a ton of cash on this. They’ve massive baggage and they will go round speaking about this. There is a circle jerk occurring now the place everyone simply says, oh, no, we have already solved this downside. However the issue is way from solved. In concept, there are some individuals who consider this may doubtlessly clear up Ethereum scaling points and the remainder of the stuff you may repair over time and patch collectively. I am not offered on it. So that will be my largest sizzling take. I believe L-2s and Rollup aren’t the answer to scaling blockchains and to offering a greater developer expertise and higher person expertise. 

Matt Zahab 
Properly mentioned. Andrew, actually a deal with. Actually respect you approaching and might’t anticipate spherical two. Earlier than you permit us at the moment, are you able to please let our listeners know the place they will discover you and VRRB Labs on-line and on socials? And usually I requested to 100% embrace your Twitter. However this episode goes to air in a few days on Thursday, the twenty seventh, and Twitter is now not a factor. We now have X. So the place can our listeners discover you on-line on socials and on X? 

Andrew Smith 
Sure. So on-line, it is vrrb.io. our web site. It is actually cool. Test it out. I believe you may prefer it. And there is a number of enhancements which are going to return to the web site within the coming months. We’ve got a Telegram channel and a Discord server. In case you go to the golf equipment part on our web site, you could find hyperlinks to each of these. And on the app previously often called Twitter, we’re at @VRRBLabs. That is the official VRRB Labs Twitter deal with. And me personally, I am @VRRBFounder. That is the place you could find me there on the app previously often called Twitter. Now X, I do not know what we name it. Is it an X deal with? Is it, are we X-ing? I do not know what is going on to occur. Is it CryptoX now as a substitute of Crypto Twitter? So these are one of the best locations to seek out me. I imply, I am on LinkedIn. I mainly by no means used LinkedIn. So that you most likely will not have a lot luck reaching out to me there. The app previously often called Twitter, Telegram and Discord are actually kind of our hubs, our web site. We might be having a testnet that watches very quickly right here. That is coming. That is imminent. Cannot give a precise date on that but, nevertheless it’s very quickly right here. And a number of thrilling issues taking place. In case you get in our Telegram and get in our Discord, that is the place all of the alpha drops happen. So you actually wish to get there. 

Matt Zahab 
Find it irresistible. Andrew, thanks once more, man. Actually respect it and wishing you one of the best of all of the group. Cannot anticipate spherical two. 

Andrew Smith 
It was a blast, Matt. Thanks a lot for having me. 

Matt Zahab 
Of us, what an episode with Andrew Smith, founding father of VRRB Labs, dropping data bombs left, proper and middle. Something on the state of blockchains, constructing Layer 1 blockchains, the metaverse, AI use instances, you identify it. We talked about it. Once more, enormous shout out to Andrew and the group for making this occur. In case you guys loved this one and I hope you probably did, please do subscribe. It will actually imply the world to my group and I. Talking of the group, love you guys. Thanks a lot for all the pieces. Justas my wonderful sound editor. Admire you as at all times. And again to listeners. Love you guys. Carry on rising these baggage and carry on staying wholesome, rich and blissful. Bye for now and we’ll speak quickly.